Why the Border Debate Gets Migration All Wrong

While ICE detentions hit record highs and deportation flights resume across the U.S., the woman running the U.N.'s global migration agency says almost everyone is having the wrong conversation. In this rare sit-down, IOM Director General Amy Pope explains why border enforcement alone can't stop migration — and reveals the surprising playbook already working in Brazil and Italy.

On this episode of "Deseret Voices," Pope, the first woman to lead the International Organization for Migration, sits down with Deseret News Executive Editor Doug Wilks to talk about the real drivers of global migration, from conflict and climate change to economic opportunity. 

Pope, a former human trafficking prosecutor who worked inside U.S. Homeland Security under two administrations, breaks down how Brazil and Italy are turning migrant labor into an economic win instead of a border crisis. She also opens up about the human cost of trafficking, her visit to a humanitarian center run by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the story of a young man rescued crossing the Mediterranean who now works to save other migrants and how her own faith shapes her belief in human dignity — even amid what she calls the biggest displacement crisis in the world right now.

“Deseret Voices” is hosted by award-winning journalists McKay Coppins and Jane Clayson Johnson, who go beyond the headlines to explore the stories, people, and ideas shaping our world today. Through thoughtful, in-depth conversations, the “Deseret Voices” podcast brings clarity and common ground to the complex issues defining our time. 

“Deseret Voices” is a Deseret News podcast, produced by Keira Farrimond, Creative Director - Video & Podcasts. 

Episodes of “Deseret Voices” drop every Monday wherever you get your podcasts. Follow along and join the conversation on YouTube (@deseretnews), Instagram (@deseretnews), Facebook (@deseretnews) and X (@deseret).